Since I don't live in the UK, I would use my AR-15 variant.

How about you?

>>16938

AK variant here. No, not as accurate as an AR, but minute of goblin out too 100 - 150 yards.

I would use an M1A/M14 or AR (.308) variants in retaliation against the shopkeepers.

>>16941

Maybe one shopkeeper... damn thing is a boat anchor.

Probably a bullpup SKS, so I can comfortably get up and down stairs and through buildings. Can't have detachable mags for them in California, but I don't think you'd need to put out a large volume of fire.

I'd keep my Remington 870 loaded with bean bags and I have my Browning HP if I needed something more lethal.

I don't consider looting a threat to my life, it's wrong to kill someone for stealing if they are unarmed imo

As for rioting it's not my job to perform crowd control, they can do what they want as long as I don't see them trying to kill someone.

If they were trying to set my place on fire I'd flip a shit and shoot whoever was lighting it in the face.

I live in a suburb though, so whole situation is rather unlikely.

>>16945

Wonder if birdshot, at range, would be a less lethal deterrent...

>>16946

I don't think so, unless they were all wearing heavy jackets. Even just one pellet through the heart could kill them (not that a beanbag wouldn't, but birdshot spreads, increasing the likelihood of pellets piercing something vital)

It would also most likely fuck them up for life if it hit any of their organs. I can't imagine having pieces of shot stuck in your bladder or your lungs would be easy to remove.

I'm also interested in handloading my own less lethal rounds, just no idea what to fill them with.

>>16947

I can see the use, but also see legal problems... as in if I'm shooting at someone, it's because they're an immanent threat to my life. With beanbag rounds, I can see it playing out badly:

"So, why the beanbag rounds?"

"Well, they were just guys on the street. I didn't want to kill anyone."

"Oh, so they weren't a threat?"

"Well, yeah they were, but they were down the block. I just wanted to scare them off."

"Right. You're under arrest for assault."

Sure, you can wait until they're closer, inside, or shooting / throwing molotovs or bricks... but if they're too close then the "less" part of "less lethal" might not work ( http://www.mypolice.ca/research_and_publications/TheRisksAssociated_with_UtilizingLess.htm )... ends up being very expensive slug.

>>16948

well, I'd like to assume that courts would have much more pressing issues following a riot than some rioter complaining about getting knocked on his ass while trying to loot a home.

In the case of an accidental death, I'd still be legally justified (I think) if I made it apparent I did not want them on my property and that they posed a threat to me. I can't imagine I'd be found guilty unless I had a really shit lawyer.

Also given the lawless scenario I'd imagine friends of anyone killed would try to seek revenge.

violence begets violence, as they say.

>>16948
also with regards to range, the ones I have are rated for 10-50 feet. not sure what that means exactly in terms of injuries, but if I just aim low I doubt I'd kill anyone.

...might be a good idea to talk this over with a cop or someone else who has trained with these now that I think about it.

>>16950

Yeah, sounds like.

Figure I'll stick with the regular ammo, though. Seems less complicated.

I'd load up my 500 mossberg with regular 00 buck, chill in my house doing my own thing, allow scared but sane people to stay in my house while using the shotgun to deter any crazy fuckers from coming near. I wouldn't waste time with LTL rounds like beanbags. If I'm going to discharge my weapon, it's the last possible thing I'm going to do, and I will be shooting to kill. I wouldn't do shit to defend anyone else's property but my own, but I would act to defend people in danger.

>not as accurate as an AR

I hate when people say this...

I'm really attached to my mini-14. I thought getting a full sized Springfield M1A would sever our bond, but we're still going strong. It's just such a good all around carbine. Perhaps I'll spice things up and get a mini-30, and we can have a three way.

>>16945
I'm kinda with this guy, in terms of liking the LTL option. My first choice, however, would be pepper grenades: cheap, scares off a group, unforgettable, non lethal. They're surprisingly easy to make too.
10-15% of pure capsaicin powder, and the remainder is some kind of filler. Put in a film canister with a small charge, and you got yourself a recipe for a very painful cloud of get-the-fuck-out. Then again, I already have a 10g vial of pure capsaicin on hand, while most people won't. There's some other homebrew methods using vinegar and baking soda, but I'm not sure how effective those'd be.

After that, I'd probably go with a handgun or something of a lower caliber. Maim rather than kill. To them, there are far easier targets than someone who's turtled up in their shop with a gun.
If some methhead comes pounding at the front door, a Remington 870 loaded with 00 buck would stop the problem quickly enough.
Interestingly enough, it's most likely the arbitrary gun laws of California that would cause me more grief than any looters. Fucking soccer moms.

Laws differ from area to area but the general rule of thumb is that if there's a riot in effect than the castle laws become much more relaxed. If you can prove that they were a threat to you or that they were attempting to gain entry to your home than you should be fine as far as the law goes. Besides, >>16949 has a point, after a riot the courts are going to be packed with people who were arrested for arson and murder. If worse comes to worse they'll probably give to a slap on the wrist fine and get your case out of the way.

As far as what I would do: I live on at the end of a cul-de-sac so I would post a sign at the entrance that said "Residents are armed. Looters will be shot." I have a shotgun, several rifles, and two 9mm pistols so there should be enough weapons to effectively patrol the one street.

>>16952

Liking that. Hopefully no reason to go out and just wait it out.

We made it 9 replies in before it turned into a legality thread! Not bad guys!

Mostly kidding. Defending yourself/business in a densely urban area during civil unrest is one of the few situations I can think of that warrants worrying about the legality of lethal force this much.

I think the particular weapons you use doesn't matter quite as much has having a lot of friends with their own. The brilliant part about OP's picture is that is sends a very clear message: a bunch of bandana'd korean guys with guns watching from behind cover on a rooftop. If you were a wild looter drunk on riot punch and looking to smash and grab, you're going to avoid any building with such a clear and present message of armed defiance. This is your best deterrent. A really cool "TRESPASSERS WILL BE SHOT, SURVIVORS WILL BE SHOT AGAIN" sticker isn't going to cut it. Neither will racking your pump shotgun until everyone pees their pants. Leave the riot control to the police and use your weapons to defend yourself should you need to.

>>16962

On the bandanas: sort of a "don't shoot me I'm one of you!" marker.

Makes me wonder about rioters with the same sort of marker, either bandanas, all the same style / color shoes, or similar. Like a group all out looting together.

>>16964

The bandannas are an asian thing.

SAGE has been used.

Just to bring this back to OP's topic.

First thing is figure out is if you do in fact have the intestinal fortitude to kill someone putting yourself or loved ones at great risk. You would be surprised how many there are who wouldn't squeeze that trigger when they needed to.

IMO a shotgun with a high capacity magazine is the optimum for crowd control and that's what OP is talking about... a group of looters kicking down the front door to his home.

Siaga makes a 20 round set up that is relatively affordable compared to the higher end makes. Other "riot" guns have from 10 to 15 round mags depending on the gauge.

Now if you want to spend some money you can get an AK in top shape or have a beat up one tuned up by a good gunsmith who knows what he is doing and start buying the 100 round drum mags. I see them listed from $225.00 to $325.00 but good luck finding any...the rest of us have been watching current events to. Honestly it's the best money I have ever spent . Well that and surplus ammo I had already bought before the last presidential election.

I have heard there is some outfit in Europe that sells a well working 300 round double drum magazine. I vaguely remember seeing some guy run through an obscene amount of ammo and actually start his wood hand guards on fire burning through one after anther on youtube.

For a shit hits the fan situation you are going to want to have as many rounds already loaded into a magazines as you can. A couple of 30 round mags won't do the trick if you have dozens and dozens of lunatics looking to harm / kill every one that is different than they are. Sadly that day is coming in the US fast. There are dozens of "flash mob" attacks every week now so it will only get worse.

And to finish this essay I see a lot of guys at the range who are pretty well set for that day the shit hits the fan as far as rifles and rounds but have almost no store of durable goods and dry foodstuffs. Think a little about what you and your family will need as far as daily caloric intake and water... plus batteries, maybe a few solar panels and the knowledge to use them for your electrical needs. good boots and warm clothes for those cold nights when the power grid is still out and on and on.

Maybe I can put together a list of good places to get these goodies and post it here.

Are your squirrels running now?

OP here.

Yeah, in a extended time of civil disobedience at least a week of "the store is empty". Figure the water and power might stay on or might not. Dry / canned goods are a must.

On weapons though, a detachable magazine fed semi-auto seems the best choice.

Can you really fire rock salt from a shotgun?

>16971

Yes, among other things, such as male ejaculate and live bait.

I stumbled across the video of the guy burning up so much ammo his hand grips start on fire.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=8f2d0456aa

He is using the same 100 drum mags I have. 100 round drums are much better than 30's. Especially since you can load the drum with out having tension on the spring. You use a butterfly thumb screw to create tension when needed so you never have a weak spring causing a malfunction.

I would be biking out of town to stay with a friend(on a bicycle, not motor) for the trip out? A handgun would probably be enough. I'd want a Colt M1911 of whatever model; I just like the style those things have.

Something like this might be fun...

http://kitup.military.com/2011/09/crowd-buster-good-times-with-rioters.html

>>16946

Back in the day, birdshot was the less lethal option. Police would fire it into crowds or try to bounce it off the pavement to disperse rioters. Wounded-but-not-dead was how they took care of shit back when anarchism was more than a bumper sticker.

SAGE has been used.