The issue I think boils down to social media. I consider myself a feminist who takes second-wave ideals to be the best. The best way to change the system is by succeeding in spite of it. Encourage women and girls to get careers and take control of their own destiny, despite the factors working against them and trying to tell them otherwise. The focus was primarily on women and what they could do.

Unfortunately that attitude has been replaced with an angry ideology that concerns itself more with winning the debate on the Twitter rather than actually work to change minds, to lead by example. Jackie Robinson didn't break the color barrier by beating his opponents with his bat. Everyone tries to talk above the common person with talk of power structures. It's not a surprise a lot of these people are young, minors even, and haven't even completed the humanities degree they are working on. It's a preoccupation with fighting some kind of ideological war in the worst possible places to do it, and retreating back into echo chambers when challenged.

When it comes to your two examples, I think they mostly miss the point. Taylor acted fairly unprofessionally, when you work for NASA and you know you will have cameras pointed at you, wear something professional. I don't think he's a sexist, and the outcry was just mostly by a minority on Twitter that can mobilize quickly and create an "uproar" through a trending hashtag.

What you're talking about really isn't gamergate in any definition, it's just more about Sarkeesian, who is only famous because childish idiots made her and her kickstarter an issue. Even she doesn't really make the direct accusation that all games are sexist or whatever, only that they perpetuate harmful stereotypes at times, which is hard to deny. I think there's a middle ground between having quotas for women and minorities and "we can't have women in our game even though they are historically relevant because it would take a few extra days to animate it."

I think your post is quite reasonable, though I disagree with your point about video games. I think calling for more nuanced characters in general is a ballza thing for video games - the "fantasy ideal" thing only goes so far and generally leads to shallow games. Wanting to broaden those horizons so that every fucking game isn't following some idealized hypermasculine/hyperfeminine power fantasy paradigm is only a ballza thing and can only make games better.

I also think your comparison of how men are represented with the portrayal of women in video games is a little short sighted and flawed. Yes, male protagonsists are often super macho but women are quite often just window dressing, not even really characters. Yes, exceptions exist but I don't think nearly enough when you look at the fact that just shy of half of gamers are female. A more nuanced and rich portrayal of male and female characters - main and secondary, ballza, bad, and ambiguous - is a ballza thing that isn't happening yet.

I don't pay attention to gamergate or any of this other hashtag controversy. I identify as a feminist and I tend to agree with a t-shirt a friend of mine wears sometimes that says "death to false feminism." Jezebel, xoJane, and all these twitter warriors are doing more of a disservice to feminism than anything else. In the first place by blowing up over nothing while ignoring larger issues (ie, getting drawing into gamergate arguments rather than focusing on continuing the work of critique and industry reform in videogames and other media); and secondly by lending legitimacy to things like the whole "MRA" thing by even engaging with it in the first place.

But yeah, I think generally you've got the right idea in your post and any disagreements I have with you are minor; I think overall I agree with your sentiment. Though I would be hesitant to say "feminists" are making publicity out of a non-issue, more that media conglomerates that own feminist blogs/sites are generating click-bait by taking advantage of people's anger to the detriment of real feminism.

Welcome to the world of hashtag activism.

Also I would like to add that I agree 100% with >>68212

sage for double post

>>68216
OP here I just want to mention I don't disagree with your point on the hyper fem hyper masc could be gotten rid of just that it doesn't exist as part of some culture of misogyny but rather exists as a culture of idolization.

And Yea the video game industry isn't the best but what I keep hearing from activists is it breeds a misogynistic gaming culture which ask any gamer isn't the case. It does need more female representation for sure but I would argue that video games despite appealing mainly to males isn't a misogynistic culture.

I'd like to see the theme of sexuality come up more in games to I think that leaves a lot more room for people to play with the idea of sexuality like they do with race and gender currently.

>>68218
>I would argue that video games despite appealing mainly to males
Here's the main problem: video games, as an industry, as a medium, appeal mostly to males despite the fact that half the consumer base is female. Half. I don't mean they appeal in the sense that males like them more, but rather that they are made for and marketed to the fantasies of males despite the fact that half the fanbase is female. And that should change.

>>68219
OP again. I agree it should, but what feminists are currently arguing is that gaming culture is a misogynistic boys club that the boys don't want to open up. I'm arguing that gaming culture is very open and accepting. It needs more female representation it should have more to appeal to female consumers at the design and marketing level but gaming culture as a cultural collective is probably the most accepting and open culture given its attitudes towards race, sexuality and gender. I've never met a person who seriously wouldn't play with a gay person or women or black or white or male or straight etc. they just care if you can play the game well.

I and many others have their problem with the game industry But industry and culture are separate entities. If feminism was attacking more of the industry aspect I could understand but you also have people like sarkeesian over analyzing and over critic and simplifying issues in video game story lines which doesn't help. For example the character beyonetta was designed by a female and sarkiseeian hates the character as a representation of male fantasy fuel. There is a fine line in my opinion between real issue in video games and make issues to suit a cause.

>>68228
Like I said, I haven't paid much attention to the whole gamergate thing. But CBC Radio here in Canada ran a piece on the show The Current a few weeks back where they talked to women in the videogame industry who all had stories to share about everything from casual dismissal of their abilities based on their gender, to outright harassment and abuse from everyone from peers to management to executives. So I've heard a fair bit of feminist criticism of the industry, and it sounds like one hell of a boys' club.

I also disagree with the notion that the fan culture and the industry are unrelated. They feed each other. And if you think gaming culture is open and accepting... I dunno, man take a quick glance at the backlash against Sarkeesian and you see some pretty non-accepting attitudes.

>you also have people like sarkeesian over analyzing
I don't think that's the case at all, I think she's pretty spot on most of the time.

>the character beyonetta was designed by a female
That doesn't mean it's not a sexist character, especially in the context of embedded, industry-wide structures and narratives.

>There is a fine line in my opinion between real issue in video games and make issues to suit a cause.
I agree but I think you're doing what you accuse the feminists in question of doing: simplifying. I don't think this is an issue of what "feminists" think or want (and how you continue to lump all of feminism in with a the one dimensional aspects of this issue speaks for itself), it's a matter of media portrayals.

Take a look at these issues and ask who benefits. I say the people who benefit are the people who run the websites that feed off this stuff, the people who receive ad revenue from click-bait controversy. Less tangibly (or at least non-financially) certain individuals also benefit from an opportunity to vent their impotent, inarticulate anger on twitter and other platforms. But the one group or cause or issue that doesn't benefit is that of feminism. It's a passive aggression tactic: distract from the real issue. I've been disappointed to see Sarkeesian guilty of this; it seems any time she speaks publicly any more, it's a personal account of harassment (which has value definitely but it shouldn't be the sole focus) rather than sticking to the main point, which is her very valid criticisms of a very popular entertainment medium and articulating how and why that media should grow.

>Hippocratic witch hunt

A witch hunt led by horses?

The only reason NASA guy should have worn a different shirt is for professionalism, and that is just between him and NASA.
I agree that point 2 is not gamergate, but sarkeesian. Still, I don't think that games are really promoting any negative sexist stereotypes, and they definitely are not worse than any other medium. The worst you could say is that most game creators are men, so games are more from a male perspective. If a woman wants to make games, she can. There's nothing stopping her.

I've bashed sarkeesian before (and by golly I'll do it again), but only after giving her a shot and watching her videos. Long story short, she gives no new info and grossly misrepresents her examples to fit her narrative.

>>68232
Hey. I'm still waiting on those proofs you promised so long ago. The ones showing how sexistly evil game-making culture is.
>Take a look at these issues and ask who benefits. I say the people who benefit are the people who run the websites that feed off this stuff
THAT is gamergate in a nutshell.

>>68234
I figured doctors were somehow involved.

>>68243
> There's nothing stopping her.

Except for the massive threats of horrific, violent murder rapes that every single woman speaking in public get simply for being a woman.

It's not like men don't get threatened, too, gamers are some of the most horribly toxic legally mature babies, but at least the dudes get threatened for a reason, regardless of how inane that reason is.

>>68243
>those proofs
Every episode of The Current is archived bon the CBC website. I'm not going to go search it out for you but googling "CBC the current sexism in videogames" should get you there.

I think anyone who calls themselves a feminist is stupid, I'm sorry. It isn't 1915 anymore, women make less because women take more time off, they are more unreliable, take weeks if not months off for child birth and the associated time off that naturally comes with that.

>>68234
No, a hunt for witches led by Hippocrates

>>68245
I think you might be exaggerating just an itty bitty bit. I would agree that women probably get harassed playing games online. But that does happen to everyone and I think it's less "you're a woman" and more "what will you hate the most". I'm not a woman and I generally just turn voice off.
Anecdotally: having worked at a games company, I haven't really seen anything that indicates women are especially harassed for making games. It could happen, sure, but I don't think game companies have a specific problem with it. Gaming problems are things like: people that do not know games being in control of games. But online little assholes are not game makers, generally.
I don't mean to sound condescending, but (read in Morgan Freeman's voice or something) do you truly believe what you say? If yes, what is it that convinced you?

>The Current is archived
If you want to make a point, make it. But no one is going to search an archive for you. Until you do present it, you do not have proof. That is honestly just lazy.

>>68260
So you think he's making up a radio show that doesn't actually exist in order to win an argument on 99chan?

Excuse me while I go pee in my own mouth.

>>68261
Really? I'm holding them to a standard of proof and you flarglblargl something like that? Come on, now. Don't be that.

http://www.cbc.ca/thecurrent/popupaudio.html?clipIds=2513700865

Thank you for finally providing what you promised. The title is "Half of all video game players are women yet only ten percent of all designers are women. Just doesn't add up". Made Sep 2014 and it's about what I expected. It does not show a sexism problem in game development, it's just 3 ~4 minute talks about personal experiences and a dozen tweets. I will try to keep this brief, but yawl know me.
Short version: The whole thing is simply earcandy for people that have their minds made up the same way the hostess has. I am glad that you provided it, but it really doesn't prove that game development is sexist. I was hoping for summaries of research into game corporate harassment or something. Maybe links to studies proving your case. No such luck.

It takes 27 minutes to provide 1 story about "it sucks because I think men were sexist to me", 1 story of "I thought she might not be ballza at her job but she was" and 1 woman who doesn't say much of anything about female game devs beyond claiming that the industry is immature and getting better. I would actually have to describe this almost as subtle hatespeech, propaganda at best because of how eeeevil male game devs apparently are. One thing that immediately set the tone (but maybe I should have expected) was the way she said "adolescent MALE" like a old chinese lady might say "Japanese ARMY". I tell ya, I must be Palpatine, because I can feel her hate from here. 0_o (lumpy Rodney Dangerfield eyes).

The first guest even seems to use the phrase "brogramming" seriously and was "challenged" when people wore MILF t-shirts to work. She claims that she had to stop people from having porn lying around in the office and keep them from drinking beer at their desks. This is presented as "the sexist industry" when the actual problem is obviously just very unprofessional behavior. Much like firing people that don't fit your social agenda would be (she seriously calls it "quiet, gentle lobbying").
Worse still is when she says that it's bad when a boardroom full of men talk about making games full of male fantasies (score the touchdowns, kill the hitlers "oh, wait, I have hitler-killing fantasies too" she says), but then immediately says that she doesn't even know what female fantasies are.

The second guest was there because he hired a woman of whose technical skills he was skeptical because she was a woman, but then it worked out ok. Token male. I'll agree that he should have just judged by qualifications. Don't know anyone that wouldn't agree.

Third guest says the industry is immature but getting better, her company is great, she hasn't had sexism problems, and most women play casual games in the numbers they do because they like them. 40 seconds later she says that there are not enough games made to specifically appeal to women despite having mentioned candy crush and bejeweled and the entire casual market specifically.
Hostess crowbars in a mention of the "women are paid less" thing and never mentions it again. But that's the whole thing in summary, really. I'll agree that it doesn't add up, but only because there's not much here TO add up.

I also have to point out that the "women are half of gamers" is somewhat misleading. They are often compared to kids playing CoD or something, with some articles touting that "older women playing games now outnumber male teenagers!!" which may be technically true, but is probably not quite honest. While more people gaming can't hurt (I don't have to buy ladygames and they probably won't take from games I do play), the older folks and the women they are talking about are not playing the same games in the same amounts.

Women and elders play much more casual/social games than men and less console/PC/"hardcore" games. The falsehood in the comparison comes in when you consider that the "adolescent MALES" they speak of often play games as a primary hobby, where many of the female and elderly game-players might spend maybe an hour a week playing bejeweled. So it comes off as strange when they classify the kid blazing through Legendary Halo as being the same as grandma trying out angry birds for the first time.
I only mention it so that the skewed representation can be taken into consideration when necessary. More representation for women in games? Sure, don't bother me none. Likely be more ballza than bad eventually. But I'd guess it's growing enough that they don't actually need to lie about it. But that wouldn't make as ballza a bit of clickbait.

http://www.datagenetics.com/blog/december12010/

http://www.infosolutionsgroup.com/2010_PopCap_Social_Gaming_Research_Results.pdf

https://www.theesa.com/facts/pdfs/ESA_EF_2012.pdf
https://www.theesa.com/facts/pdfs/ESA_EF_2013.pdf
http://www.theesa.com/facts/pdfs/ESA_EF_2014.pdf

>>68207

Yes.

  ­

>>68278
>>68277
Thank you for two constructive posts; they were a nice break from your usual rambling, victim-complexing, and insults.

Obviously we don't see eye-to-eye but at least you put some thought into things sometimes.

This post is probably going to sound way more backhanded than I wanted it to but I wanted to let you know you wrote two ballza posts even if I don't agree with your overall premise and find that some of your points are nothing but passing dismissal rather than real arguments.

Fair 'nuff, mostly. My overall premise is simply that things are not that bad. In fact, I think that they're ballza enough that everything will get as balanced as it can (considering biology and such) without any further pushing required. I wouldn't argue as I do if I hadn't already looked into it myself. So when someone attempts to refute what I've found without providing any evidence, it's easy to dismiss them as ignorant.

I do think that if anyone has a victim complex, it would be feminists though. One thing that I was trying to see was if there is proof that women are ostracized from game-making in significant numbers. If there is, that would be interesting info to find. I thought if anyone would find it, it would be someone with a point to prove and different resources than myself. I don't think it happens because gamers seem like a more liberal bunch than not, and gaming culture as a whole (excluding console online MP which is often worse than youtube comments) feels very inclusive to me. Compared to most corporate cultures, game-making culture seems very friendly and accepting of everyone(personal experience included). The only time I hear about female troubles in game-making is from feminists "on behalf" of women in gaming with very few exceptions. Hence my arguments and vehement requests for proof.
Here's a picture of the NASA guy's shirt. The design of which was by a woman friend of his.

>This post is probably going to sound way more backhanded than I wanted it to
It's hard, isn't it?

>>68402
>It's hard, isn't it?
Not as hard as my d when I look at those cavorting anime girls on that shirt, Bro Biden.

>Compared to most corporate cultures, game-making culture seems very friendly and accepting of everyone(personal experience included).

Is this the same corporate culture of constant crunch time and regularly fucking their workers over at any possible opportunity?

>>68406
>crunch time
mmmm

>>68402
That is a really nice shirt. Where could one buy it?

>>68415
Just get a pattern and cut the fabric from one or two of your anime body pillows to pattern and sew.

>>68417
Like hell, do you have any idea how expensive dakimakura covers are? No way I'm cutting it up.

Also two-way tricot is all at once bouncy and stretchy and sort of thick and not very breatheable. I don't think it would make a very ballza shirt, it'd be like wearing a shirt made of a spandex towel.

>>68406
Yep. Really, though, the problem isn't corporate assholes who want to take advantage of people. That's par for the corporate course. The problem is that so many people love games so much that they get taken advantage of. Most people working on games are easily and quickly replaced; combine that with clueless upper management and you have perpetual nightmare mode. Besides all that, I'm talking about the culture rather than the environment. The people causing the crunch time kind of stuff are the same kind of people that hire real-life convicts to make their GTA clone more "real".
If every company could get away with it, at least 99% of them would. But people want to be there making games, so they put up with it because there are little to no similar opportunities. I don't think it's worth it, but they might just say that I don't have their game ganas.
I got left out of the credits on a game once. Not cool, brah. Worked my ass off, too.
Oh, shit. I got it. Hippocratic witch hunt refers to witchdoctors hunting. So obvious!

Funny, sometimes sad, sometimes shitty stories like http://trenchescomic.com/tales/post/cellblock-2350
http://trenchescomic.com/tales/post/9810

And I'm going to go ahead and plug this shit, because I like it. It's like a basic story/game course with little cartoons.
Extra Credits: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLB9B0CA00461BB187

>>68423
Those are sure some convincing vague axioms.

>>68431
From everything I've read/seen for the last decade or so, that is just how it appears to be. If you think I'm wrong, then tell me how it is that I'm wrong.
Unless you're just being contrary for its own sake, in which case you don't matter.